Similar question, with 50 and 70 years perspective under our belt, in what way was the national interest of the USA advanced by our adventures in Vietnam and Korea? If we had stayed out of those conflicts I wonder what the world would look like today.
Ukraine is history repeating. We are not changing the outcome of these historic events, only prolonging the misery and possibly risking the very existence of our republic. We should stop now, nothing good can come from this.
Yeah, very good question. My family was closely involved in that conflict. My father did five tours of duty there while we lived on Viet Nam's periphery in southeast Asia and Australia. At the time, my father believed in the war and that the preservation of democracy and the ancient culture was worth fighting for. He had many friends in the ARVN as well as civilian locals. Most of them were probably killed as a consequence of that advocacy. Today, my father is deeply regretful. Afterall, look at Viet Nam today. I don't think the war changed the inevitable outcome of Viet Nam, but simply postponed the modern version at the cost of killing millions.
Jeff, I believe that just like the response to Covid 3 years ago, we did not change the outcome one iota, just prolonged and aggravated the misery. the only people who benefited from these adventures were politicians and the military industrial complex.
Good analogy. Coincidentally, in his famous farewell address, Eisenhower gave equal weight for his concerns about the MIC as he did for the possibility of our public policy being hijacked by a "scientific-technological elite". That's exactly what happened with COVID.
America needs an Eisenhower, not a weisenheimer, to lead us away from war.
I don’t think there’s an easy answer to that question. How many lives were lost in the Korean War? Was that worth it for South Korea to be what it is today instead of what North Korea is? If we had won the Vietnam war (which we perhaps could have - we essentially gave up), would the answer be different?
I was thinking about Korea, too. We (ostensibly, the UN) are still in a state of war with North Korea and South Korea exists under a ceasefire with its cousins to the north. You pose an excellent question that is really worth a deeper dive. I think we can make a distinction between the founders of North Viet Nam and North Korea. The former was guided by Ho Chi Minh vision, which was very much based on democratic, constitutional principles, whereas, Kim Il Sung was a marxist dictator of the worst kind. I think that if North Korea prevailed in 1954, its southern province would be just like its northern province and it would be a miserable place to be for 99% of the people. I don't think I can make the analogy between Putin and Kim Jong Un.
Good question and I'm going to think on this more.
I've been pondering the question for a long time and don't have an answer (I've gone back and forth a few times). I think HCM's allegiance to democratic, constitutional principles may be Western fantasy more than reality; what I've heard from Vietnamese immigrants over the years presents a different story. In any case, over the long term Vietnam seems to be moving more towards our side rather than side of countries like China and North Korea. So maybe in the end we win after all.
That could very well by right about HCM. I have a sort-of adopted brother whose family floated down the Mekong River in cobbled together floats out into the ocean and picked up by fisherman then transferred to the USN during the boatlift. He went to school, has a degree in physics and currently travels back and forth to Hanoi and HCM City as an advisor/translator for Cummins. He tells me that the NVN always loved Americans (especially our movies), but hated LBJ and Nixon and the American war leaders. This may explain the fairly easy reconciliation between Viet Nam and the U.S. (and the West).
As for China, remember that they invaded Viet Nam (1977?) and were thoroughly trounced by the very experienced NVA. That's the last time the PA has been involved in a real shooting war (~45 years ago). Almost none of the current military members have any combat experience -- which may be to the world's advantage.
The North Korean thing is worrisome, but may be diminishing as modern VN trades more and more with Australia, Japan, & the U.S.
We thought it was worth over 3 million lives to try to save South Vietnam from North Vietnam.
In consideration of what Vietnam is today, by your estimation, was it worth those lives?
Similar question, with 50 and 70 years perspective under our belt, in what way was the national interest of the USA advanced by our adventures in Vietnam and Korea? If we had stayed out of those conflicts I wonder what the world would look like today.
Ukraine is history repeating. We are not changing the outcome of these historic events, only prolonging the misery and possibly risking the very existence of our republic. We should stop now, nothing good can come from this.
Yeah, very good question. My family was closely involved in that conflict. My father did five tours of duty there while we lived on Viet Nam's periphery in southeast Asia and Australia. At the time, my father believed in the war and that the preservation of democracy and the ancient culture was worth fighting for. He had many friends in the ARVN as well as civilian locals. Most of them were probably killed as a consequence of that advocacy. Today, my father is deeply regretful. Afterall, look at Viet Nam today. I don't think the war changed the inevitable outcome of Viet Nam, but simply postponed the modern version at the cost of killing millions.
Jeff, I believe that just like the response to Covid 3 years ago, we did not change the outcome one iota, just prolonged and aggravated the misery. the only people who benefited from these adventures were politicians and the military industrial complex.
Good analogy. Coincidentally, in his famous farewell address, Eisenhower gave equal weight for his concerns about the MIC as he did for the possibility of our public policy being hijacked by a "scientific-technological elite". That's exactly what happened with COVID.
America needs an Eisenhower, not a weisenheimer, to lead us away from war.
Without the Dulles brothers please!
( Weird glitch had to delete my previous comment which posted twice for some odd reason. )
👍🏽
I don’t think there’s an easy answer to that question. How many lives were lost in the Korean War? Was that worth it for South Korea to be what it is today instead of what North Korea is? If we had won the Vietnam war (which we perhaps could have - we essentially gave up), would the answer be different?
I was thinking about Korea, too. We (ostensibly, the UN) are still in a state of war with North Korea and South Korea exists under a ceasefire with its cousins to the north. You pose an excellent question that is really worth a deeper dive. I think we can make a distinction between the founders of North Viet Nam and North Korea. The former was guided by Ho Chi Minh vision, which was very much based on democratic, constitutional principles, whereas, Kim Il Sung was a marxist dictator of the worst kind. I think that if North Korea prevailed in 1954, its southern province would be just like its northern province and it would be a miserable place to be for 99% of the people. I don't think I can make the analogy between Putin and Kim Jong Un.
Good question and I'm going to think on this more.
I've been pondering the question for a long time and don't have an answer (I've gone back and forth a few times). I think HCM's allegiance to democratic, constitutional principles may be Western fantasy more than reality; what I've heard from Vietnamese immigrants over the years presents a different story. In any case, over the long term Vietnam seems to be moving more towards our side rather than side of countries like China and North Korea. So maybe in the end we win after all.
That could very well by right about HCM. I have a sort-of adopted brother whose family floated down the Mekong River in cobbled together floats out into the ocean and picked up by fisherman then transferred to the USN during the boatlift. He went to school, has a degree in physics and currently travels back and forth to Hanoi and HCM City as an advisor/translator for Cummins. He tells me that the NVN always loved Americans (especially our movies), but hated LBJ and Nixon and the American war leaders. This may explain the fairly easy reconciliation between Viet Nam and the U.S. (and the West).
As for China, remember that they invaded Viet Nam (1977?) and were thoroughly trounced by the very experienced NVA. That's the last time the PA has been involved in a real shooting war (~45 years ago). Almost none of the current military members have any combat experience -- which may be to the world's advantage.
The North Korean thing is worrisome, but may be diminishing as modern VN trades more and more with Australia, Japan, & the U.S.